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Thread: 32G vs. 64G free disk space

  1. #21
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    Or you can look at it as 3x the free capacity for $50.

    The eMMC is significantly faster than the microSD card slot, so even if you use symlinks to install to the microSD card slot, programs are going to be a lot slower to load than if you loaded the program to the internal memory. Unless money is really, really tight, the 64GB version is almost deffinitely a much better bet unless you think you'll only have a very small number of small program to install on your tablet.

    Also of importance, the more the eMMC is utilized, the less endurance it'll have and also the slower it'll work. Fill it up and it'll die much faster and write speeds will drop exponentially. Flash memory only has a certain number of write cycles and things like log files and page file are written to it all the time, so even if you are not loading and deleting lots of stuff off the internal storage, just regular usage and put a couple of GBs of writes per day on the memory. Considering the type of memory, it probably only has a write endurance in the 400-1,000 write cycle range before it starts losing pages and stuff.

    Figure with modest free space maintained (5GB or so) you might be looking at 2-3 years of moderate to heavy usage before you might start seeing disk endurance issues. Keep only 1-2GB free and probably more like months to a year or two before you may encounter issues. Keep 10GB free and it might take 5-7 years before you see issues.

    Just one more reason to go for the higher capacity one. Really, IMHO the 32GB should only be used for very casual users or those who are primarily going to be doing things like facebook, web surfing, email and video/music (with that mostly loaded on a microSD card).

  2. #22
    rscheller
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    Dangit azazel1024... we had this all figured out - - and here you come along and provide a totally different angle to the question of 32GB vs 64GB?

    Now you got a bunch of folks questioning their decision to save $50 and go with the 32GB device...

    thanks
    Sandi9264 likes this.

  3. #23
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    Sorry, but knocking the risk board off the table is my thing.
    rscheller and Sandi9264 like this.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by azazel1024 View Post
    Or you can look at it as 3x the free capacity for $50.

    The eMMC is significantly faster than the microSD card slot, so even if you use symlinks to install to the microSD card slot, programs are going to be a lot slower to load than if you loaded the program to the internal memory. Unless money is really, really tight, the 64GB version is almost deffinitely a much better bet unless you think you'll only have a very small number of small program to install on your tablet.

    Also of importance, the more the eMMC is utilized, the less endurance it'll have and also the slower it'll work. Fill it up and it'll die much faster and write speeds will drop exponentially. Flash memory only has a certain number of write cycles and things like log files and page file are written to it all the time, so even if you are not loading and deleting lots of stuff off the internal storage, just regular usage and put a couple of GBs of writes per day on the memory. Considering the type of memory, it probably only has a write endurance in the 400-1,000 write cycle range before it starts losing pages and stuff.

    Figure with modest free space maintained (5GB or so) you might be looking at 2-3 years of moderate to heavy usage before you might start seeing disk endurance issues. Keep only 1-2GB free and probably more like months to a year or two before you may encounter issues. Keep 10GB free and it might take 5-7 years before you see issues.

    Just one more reason to go for the higher capacity one. Really, IMHO the 32GB should only be used for very casual users or those who are primarily going to be doing things like facebook, web surfing, email and video/music (with that mostly loaded on a microSD card).
    The principles you describe are valid points in that the less free space available, the less the part will be able to retain memory but the numbers you provided don't look all that accurate to me. I'll start off by saying, for eMMC the typical guaranteed number of write cycles is on the order of 100K write cycles depending on the type of memory not 400-1,000 write cycles.

    There's also quite a few unknowns in the point you're trying to make. 1st off, are you certain that the 32GB eMMC is actually a 32GB device? Unless you opened up a T100 and pulled the part number off the eMMC and looked up the data sheet, it is possible that it's a 64GB or 40GB eMMC which only exposes 32GB to the operating system, therefore guaranteeing Free memory space is available at all times to increase the "endurance" life of the device. For example, earlier I mentioned the Max Capacity of a 32GB device was 29.8GB. Then why is the capacity showing as 28.2GB? Where did the the other 1.6GB go? Or maybe it isn't being used, where that 1.6GB is unallocated and reserved to guarantee endurance longevity of the device, even if the device was filled to capacity as any company designing a device would most likely do if they actually have engineers designing their products and have taken into consideration that their customers might actually be filling the device up to capacity. Another thing we don't know is how many writes per second are actually occurring? Most companies with engineers designing their products try to reduce the necessary write cycles to an eMMC by continuously writing data to RAM and then in larger intervals of time write to the eMMC, thus decreasing the write cycle count to the eMMC. Since you're actually providing endurance time vs. capacity filled estimates, I only have to assume you must know what that number is?

    So I'm pretty curious to understand, where you are getting your 10GB free= 5-7 years, 5GB free=2-3 years, and 1-2GB free= months-2years numbers from? I'm curious because I'm an engineer that works in the development of products which use eMMC devices where these questions often comes up in the design of our products and I haven't seen those numbers before when working with other expert hardware engineers who have done these endurance studies when the part is used at full capacity. However, the differences could be in the application it is being used so I'm open to learning more.

    I'm all for recommending getting the 64GB model over the 32GB model and in fact, it's the choice I personally made. I blame Asus that these discussions are even present in this forum because I feel it is nothing more than an Asus marketing strategy gone wrong. It's obvious to me that someone in their sales/marketing wanted to be like Apple and be able to charge $100 more for the same stuff, just with more memory. When I look at it, the cost difference to Asus between a 32GB and a 64GB eMMC is probably at most in the $4 range price difference and most likely even less seeing as though they're paying for an additional 8GB EEProm on the 32GB model. So why are they even bothering to offer a 32GB and 64GB model when the only thing it really does is cause confusion to their customers?

    So if you guys are really tired of these 32GB vs. 64GB T100 discussions, I suggest you talk to Asus and start asking them why they decided to go with this marketing strategy mess which is confusing to their customers.
    Last edited by Rednroll; 06-02-2014 at 07:23 PM.

  5. #25
    rscheller
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    So why are they even bothering to offer a 32GB and 64GB model when the only thing it really does is cause confusion to their customers?
    That's what I said.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rednroll View Post
    I blame Asus that these discussions are even present in this forum because I feel it is nothing more than an Asus marketing strategy gone wrong. It's obvious to me that someone in their sales/marketing wanted to be like Apple and be able to charge $100 more for the same stuff, just with more memory.
    No, they're just going with what the entire mobile market is doing... Everything from a Google Nexus to an iPad uses storage as a way to charge extra...

    How it works is they offer a base configuration for very little profit margin but they really want you to get the higher capacity model so they can get more profit for every unit sold... This is especially true of devices that don't offer upgradeable storage, like the Google Nexus or any of Apple's mobile products that have no card readers...

    Apple just charges the highest premium for the additional storage capacity for $100 for each doubling of storage on up to 128GB max but you could get a Pro tablet or Ultrabook for how much you end up paying...

    While $50 is more in line with the Android side of the Market...

    Though, the cost for the additional eMMC is higher than $4... more like $8 but you're otherwise right that it's much less than the pricing difference but that's how they get most of their profits...

    Mind, system developers for Windows tablets do have to deal with the extra cost of Windows license... higher minimum storage than Android devices, etc. While still trying to keep pricing close to the lower cost Android devices to be competitive...

    Things will get easier for them soon, though, as MS is finally starting to offer both better discounted and free versions of Windows... So they can finally make value range versions of Windows tablets but they'll be additional spec cut backs as seen by the the similar entry range for Android devices with less RAM, etc... but the discounted version of Windows should allow even the Budget models like the T100 to offer better specs for its price range...

    Especially, as they move on to higher capacity NANDs and LP-DDR4 RAM sometime next year and Intel fully moves to 14nm and gets their cost cutting measures (smaller system boards, easier for system makers to source parts from 3rd parties, etc) implemented by then and further lower the average costs for system makers...

  7. #27
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    Can we have a T300 i5 vs. i7 processor discussion now?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rednroll View Post
    Can we have a T300 i5 vs. i7 processor discussion now?
    Sure but do it here... Transformer Windows 8

  9. #29
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    Ahhhh no. Not even close. At current sizes, ~19-20nm, MLC NAND flash typically has a write endurance of 2,000-5,000 write cycles depending on who's flash you are talking about. Most are in the 3,000 range. Not 100k write cycles. SLC flash around 19nm is about 100k write cycles, which is part of the reason why SLC is still used in some enterprise drives, because of extreme endurance combined with the fact that it is faster.

    TLC flash, triple level cell, has even lower endurance. In an actual SSD, Samsung is still the only one who uses it and they have very proprietary stuff surrounding it, but they seem to be pushing around 2,000 write cycles. The TLC used in something like an SD card is typically WAY lower. You are talking more like 400-800 write cycles.

    Odds are decent that the eMMC in the T100 is TLC flash. Even if it isn't and it is MLC flash, figure 3,000 write cycles.

    Figure in a typical day of moderate use you'll have something on the order of 10GB of writes. If you have 5GB free and 3,000 write cycle endurance with ZERO amplification (almost no drive has zero amplification, it ranges from typically around 1.5-10) you'd be looking at 1,500 days, or 5 years of life. Figure typical amplification of 2 (things like garbage clean up and that sort of thing where the controller is moving data around in the background occasionally) and its more like 2.5 years of life with 5GB free and 10GB of writes per day of moderate use and MLC flash.

    If it is using TLC flash, you can probably figure half that endurance, or maybe a year and a half.

    Leave only 2GB free and a much more dire scenario. Granted, if it is setup the way it "should be", hibernation and page file can be counted in the free space, since those areas are going to be used dynamically, so typically you should have the equivelent of around 4GB of free space all the time (you just won't see if, but the SSD controller will and a lot of the writes will be going to that area).

    So even if you left effectively 0 spare free on the drive you should truely have the endurance equivelent to leaving 4GB free...which is maybe 1 year or so if it has TLC and 2 years if it has MLC. If you as the user left 4GB of free disk space according to file manager, than double it again, maybe 2 years if it has TLC flash and 4 years if it is MLC.

    Of course if you are a heavy user, reduce time again.

    A typical consumer workload per day is quoted as 10-30GB of data, though the 30GB is probably what you'd see with heavy use cases and 10GB lighter. Of course if you are using it to check email and a website or two for 20 minutes a day on average, figure more like 1 or maybe 2GB a day as a super light use case (stuff gets written when you put it to sleep and so on no matter what you are doing).

    Looking at endurance, for example the Samsung EVO 120GB doesn't have an exact quoted endurnace figure, but the working backwards method got to around 50GB of writes per day (drive EMPTY) for an 8 year endurance. That's probably twice or a bit more than what you'd likely see in a typical use case...but that is with a 120GB SSD and empty. 50% full all the time and it is more like 4 years at 50GB/day. 75% full all the time and that is 2 years. 4GB free and it is 3 months with its TLC flash.

    Drive endurance probably shouldn't be a worry for most users of either SSDs or the T100. I am simply pointing out that if you are a heavy user and figure you are going to keep the T100 for awhile, you probably should NOT go for the 32GB version. It is at least a distinct possibility that within the time frame you'd own it (lets call it 2 years) if you keep it fairly stuff with stuff, that you just might run in to drive endurance issues where you start getting corrupted data from cells dying. A 64GB version makes it a lot easier to leave a resonable amount of spare volume, which on something like the T100, I'd personally recommend leave at least 5GB free most of the time. Really, performance wise, you probably want more like 8-12GB free for the best performance, though endurancewise, at least 4-5GB free.

    That means the 32GB version has more like 6-7GB free for stuff if you want to try to maximize endurance (or at least give it a good shot at lasting 3-4 years+) and the 64GB version more like 28-29GB free. Call it more like 2-3GB free for the 32GB or 20GB free on the 64GB if you want to try to maximize drive write performance.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by azazel1024 View Post
    Ahhhh no. Not even close. At current sizes, ~19-20nm, MLC NAND flash typically has a write endurance of 2,000-5,000 write cycles depending on who's flash you are talking about. Most are in the 3,000 range. Not 100k write cycles. SLC flash around 19nm is about 100k write cycles, which is part of the reason why SLC is still used in some enterprise drives, because of extreme endurance combined with the fact that it is faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rednroll View Post
    The principles you describe are valid points in that the less free space available, the less the part will be able to retain memory but the numbers you provided don't look all that accurate to me. I'll start off by saying, for eMMC the typical guaranteed number of write cycles is on the order of 100K write cycles depending on the type of memory not 400-1,000 write cycles.
    SLC=100K
    MLC=10K
    TLC=1K



    Quote Originally Posted by Rednroll View Post
    Most companies with engineers designing their products try to reduce the necessary write cycles to an eMMC by continuously writing data to RAM and then in larger intervals of time write to the eMMC, thus decreasing the write cycle count to the eMMC. Since you're actually providing endurance time vs. capacity filled estimates, I only have to assume you must know what that number is?
    Did you overlook this statement? Because, I didn't overlook the following statement you posted below and if you really put some thought into that statement and really consider the write endurance of the eMMC to be in the <1K range, then you would be able to realize the eMMC would be whipped out in less than a week of use if the OS was constantly writing updates to log files as you described. Thus, the reason I asked you to post the time interval that the OS writes to the eMMC, which you would need to give those forecasted life spans and seemed to ignore in your haste to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by azazel1024 View Post
    Flash memory only has a certain number of write cycles and things like log files and page file are written to it all the time, so even if you are not loading and deleting lots of stuff off the internal storage, just regular usage and put a couple of GBs of writes per day on the memory.
    The fact of the matter, is that it is a very common design practice to use other smaller sized storage devices to write the constantly changing files and variables to as you described, in a conscious effort to minimize the writes to the eMMC. Like I stated, I work in the development of products that use eMMC devices where the life expectancy of these products needs to meet a minimum of a 10 year life expectancy under worst case user conditions and a common practice that is used, is to write constantly changing files and variables to F-RAM which is non-volatile memory just like FLASH memory but has a 10^16 write cycle endurance, or in other words approximately 2 trillion write cycles per day for 15 years. The down side of F-RAM is its reduced size in comparison to FLASH memory. I'm going to make a safe assumption that I'm not holding any engineering secret keys to the universe with this concept and the Asus engineers are able to incorporate similar common design practices into their tablet designs which are also using eMMC storage devices.

    Ferroelectric RAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    While it's obvious to me that you have done some homework on eMMC flash memory, it is also very apparent to me that you have never worked in the design of products which use these devices and you seem to be making some incorrect assumptions.
    Last edited by Rednroll; 06-03-2014 at 06:23 PM.

 

 
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